Deep Freeze... Skystream & Ice.
Recently there was a comment posted questioning the effect of ice on the blades on the Skystream and any danger to people & property that it may pose. So I thought I'd share my experiences with freezing rain and my skystream.
A few weeks back we got hit with a pretty good ice storm that coated everything with a 1/4"-1/2" of ice, accompanied by winds of 15-20 mph, gusting into the 30s at times. The skystream was turning at full speed in this wind, but as the freezing rain coated the blades the increased weight continued to slow it's RPMs. By the time the ice stopped there looked to be a 1/2" of ice on the turbine and even in the 20 mph winds it's rotation was slowed to what you would see in an 8 mph wind speed.
Later as the temperatures rose and the ice began to melt and fall away from the blades, the turbine continued to turn slowly. By the time the blades had lighted enough to resume rotating at a high rate of speed the ice had fallen off around the base. From what we witnessed no ice fell any further from the tower than 15 feet which seems to pose less danger to people and property than the average ice coated tree. If anyone else has had experience with freezing rain and their turbine we like to hear your comments as well.
Here's some shots of the tower and turbine during that storm.
Lots of ice and snow here on PEI, but no problems from ice build-up with our Skystream so far.
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My sky stream shut down in an ice storm earlier this week, and it's still not running even though it's all melted. I don't have my Xbee communications PC to diagnose this weekend what the problem could be.
Anyone have any ideas? This turbine was installed December 19th, and this was the first bad winter weather we've had. It weathered a thunderstorm just fine back in December.
I've got a call into my dealer, but I thought I'd post here to see if anyone has any ideas on what it might be.
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Try just throwing your disconnect switch to off for about 5-10 minuets then switch it back on it might start back up again
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Lance is my neighbor and we already tried the to switch off the power for one hour but no help. Turbine is still down.
My turbine also slowed down during the icing conditions but had no failures.
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I've got an update on my Sky stream 3.7 turbine which has been down now for almost 2 weeks. My dealer sent a bucket truck up today to get access to the turbine head. When they got up there, they found that the circuitry on the relay switch got fried, and even though they had a new relay switch, when they swapped it, it didn't fix the problem, as apparently the damage also affected the inverter. SWWP is in the process of warrantying out my turbine head, and as soon as it's approved, my dealer is supposed to bring up and install a new turbine head. We still can't figure out what caused it. The electricians thought it might be a factory defect. I've got pictures of the fried relay switch if Joshua wants to post them. Bill also came up since he lives close by, and luckily, his turbine is still working as it's supposed too. He even had the same type of icing from the recent storm when mine went down, but his apparently didn't suffer any damage. I'll update everyone after we get the old turbine down and get a better determination of the cause.
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was interested in finding out your actual cost on your skystream vs.. the return of electricity..we live on lake erie..which seems to always have lots of wind..as we looked into getting one last year ..however, our neighbours complained that it would be a eye sore..however,,now perhaps the situation has changed..thanks
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I agree with re-booting. Usually this will re-set everything. It could also be caused by a glitch in the frequency/voltage of the grid.
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I am not sure why the designers didnt think to use some of the power that the windmill generated to heat the blades. This would help keep the ice off and even more make sure that one blade doesnt fling ice off while the others keeps the ice, which would create a big imballance probrobly enough to bring the whole tower down.
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I think it really would be unnecessary to heat the blades other than to guarantee production in the worst of weather.
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I agree with the gentleman who suggested heating the blades with a bit of the juice being produced. Have a toggle switch so the heat is on only when you need it and not wasting electricity needlessly. Some areas of the country are very prone to freezing rains and this is during potentially higher wind episodes and you are losing power when the wind is most favorable. It would not take many watts to de-ice the blades. You could put the toggle on a timer which shuts off automatically like a bathroom heater.
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josh,I came to your house 4/19/2008 to see your set up was very interested thanks for allowing me and wife and grandaugher to visit.I had a 3.7 installed in sept 08 and have little problem with it.But when I did could never get thtough to skystream i have the x bee communicator and it doesn't track output like I was told it would so I am estimating my output which is about 450-480kw per month.Don't have a extra meter setup like you do now ohio edsion says I have to have a bidirectional meter installed at a cost of $500.00 have seen meters for $110.00 I read where you have over produce 254? kw in 15 months is it cost effective to spend $500.00 for a meter? thanks tim
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Hey tim, good to hear from you.
I'd say it's worth the money, although I think it's a scam that the utility charges that much for it on top of the interconnection agreement paper work fees. I'd personally put the bidirectional meter on your house. actually for the past 15 months we've put nearly 700 kWh back on the grid of the 3,145 kWh we've produced. That's a big chunk of the production to give free to the utility.
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Josh,were you forced to buy your bi-directional from the energy co at their price of $500.00 or did yuo buy one online?tim
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Yeah. Not sure if would allow you to use your own for the main house meter. From the way I remember it the $500 is for them to put it in, because the utility still owns it.
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I called SWWP about operating the Skystream turbine during icing conditions, they said " let it spin".
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As a Pilot for over 20 years, Ice on a propeller is not a good thing, first the inballance, performance, and third the blades slinging ice, I wonder what there responce will be when a large chunk of ice gets flung through someones window and god for bid it hit someone. I think it would be a good idea to prevent the ice build up in the first place. But I wont have to be the one to pay the lawsuit. Just my 2 cents
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Your right on with the performance aspect, the ice definitely shuts down production, but the chances of ice being flung from the blades seems to be slim to none from my experience.
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Concerning ice on the blades.. would it be safer to turn turbine off till ice melts so as not to put stress on turbine?? I have plans on erecting a turbine in 2009..can't decide on verticle axis or skystream..any thoughts are accepted
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One thing you can do if you my have a periodic ice problem is spray silicone or car wax. Anything to make it a little slippery. Have a friend on the farm in rural Kansas that climbs his old windmill every fall to lube the bearings, and gives the blades a spray of silicone, he's never had an ice build up since he started doing this.
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I agree that wax or spray silicone is probably a good idea when installing the unit. Yet, another idea I have heard is to paint the blades black. Black absorbs (does not reflect) sun light and in theory would help remove ice from the blades.
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Hey ron, don't quote me on this cause I haven't had time to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure in the manual they say not to paint the blades because it will affect the performance of the turbine and I think it will void your warranty too.
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Joshua - I've been reading your stuff for some time now. I just want you to know how much information has been provided to me and how much I've learned by reading you and reading the others that share information. Anyways, I just wanted to say thanks and to let you know how much it means to me. Hopefully, we can install a system on our property next year. Pamela Curry.
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Hey thanks Pamela. I was having lots of people email and call me with questions on the skystream and my experience with it.
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Good day,
Anyone though of using Aquapel
that product we use on our car windshield that repels water.
If applied correctly it really work and for an entire year even in very cold weather like here with some -30C
Wish I had the right to install one of these in our backyard.
Regards,
David
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What was your cost of installation for the skystream? I was quoted $17,000.00
Sincerely,
Roger
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Hi all,
Just discovered your site. The ice discussion is interesting and is the answer to an aspect I've been wondering about - thanks! I agree with the silicone solution. We, like someone else on lake Erie are in the Niagara Pennisula and sandwiched between the East end of Lake Erie and west end of Lake Ontario - we are RIGHT ON Lake Ontario in fact.
I've beeen weighing the various aspects of getting into a SkyStream 3.7 for the last 12-18 months and 2009 is the year we're going to do it, following some further due-dilligence.
Being in the Grimsby-Niagara area of Ontario, CANADA, I would be especially appreciative of anyone in the Ontario area and experience with implementation/installation and planning/building approvals of same.
TIA,
Dave Rowlison
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we too live on the lake...lake erie..and i believe the cost of this unit installed is about 17,000...with no provincial rebates.as of yet..
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We have lots of customers here in Alaska who have dealt with a lot of these kinds of issues. Some of their solutions are, well, uniquely Alaskan but a couple have painted the blades and this seems to work for them. I am not sure it will void your warranty for blade related issues (like a non standard tower will for tower failure) but it might be worth talking to SWWP about. I know that getting Tech Support to answer the phone sometimes is a hit or miss proposition so you might try sales directly. Your dealer might have a specific contact person you can talk to. If all else fails contact me and i will try to get someone to help you.
you can reach us at office@susitnaenergy.com
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Lance,
How old is your turbine? If it is newer, was it on the recall list? My thought is it sounds like water got into it. That is what the recall addressed, water issues. Did your dealer notice if there was a "O-ring" installed when he took it apart? (Saw one of those a few weeks ago)
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Hoss,
My turbine was put into use on December 19, 2008. I picked it up from my dealers warehouse in October 2008, and it was a later version with the Xbee communication package with it. The service technicians from my dealer that came up to work on it last Friday thought that some moisture may have gotten inside, but the top cover gasket was in place as originally installed from the factory. When it was being assembled on the day we put it up, we never opened the top cover. The service technicians also said that it possibly could have been a factory defect, which the icing/cold weather exposed the defect. The turbine is still on top of the tower, as we're waiting on SWWP approval for a warranty replacement of the turbine. It's been a week, and we're still waiting on the go ahead. Given that it's probably going to be a month with this turbine being out of service, I'm going to push either for the warranty to start new with the replacement new turbine, or at least an "add on" to the end for the days this turbine was out of service.
My neighbor, Bill, who commented on this thread earlier, has had his turbine up at least a month longer, and his has worked without any problem. Even though both turbines are installed on 55ft monopole towers, I think I have a more exposed wind site, so I don't know if this has any thing to do with this shutdown in the ice or not.
I've got a picture of the fried relay switch. If you'd like me to email a picture, I can do so.
Lance
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yeah lance I'd like to see that picture if you don't mind.
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Lance,
Absolutly. My email is hoss@susitnaenergy.com there was a recall recently so if you include your seriel number I will look it up. The problem was too much lube had been used durring assembly and this allowed water to enter the turbine. I saw something similar with one that was missing the o-ring as well. Just send me your info and I will see of I can help. Or if your dealer would like to email I can try to elp that way too.
Hoss
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my email is hoss@susitnaenergy.com
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Does anyone know if the Skyview version 2.0 software is ready and available yet?
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turn off the unit for at least 10 minutes and then tun the power back on
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Hoss,
I just got off the phone with my dealer, and SWWP has issued a RMA# and the expected delivery of the new turbine to my dealer is around 3/13/09. My dealer, who has around 10 units in inventory, thought he would be able to just use one of his inventory units to swap out. But SWWP would not allow it, so that's why it's taking around 4 weeks for a new unit to be shipped.
I inquired with my dealer if I would have a new 5 year warranty on this new turbine, and they said it would, which is nice to hear. They also said that they'll give me a compensation form to submit for lost power generation while the unit was down, which I certainly wasn't expecting.
It'll be interesting to see what actually caused the turbine damage. I don't have my serial number handy right now, but I may e-mail you this later on, so you can check if it was included in the recall.
Lance
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Nice site!!!
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Hey thanks, should have some new posts up later this week.
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With all of the issues/concerns/complaints one would think there would be more comments with the AZ BBB against SWWP. There are only 8 listed on their site. http://central-northern-western-arizona.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=30&bbb=1126&firm=15005659
Hint, Hint!
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I thought I'd update everyone on my turbine problem. For background, my 3.7 turbine quit producing on January 21 during an ice storm. The dealer/SWWP put in a new relay to replace the fried relay switch on 2/13, but that didn't fix the problem, so SWWP decided to replace my whole turbine. After almost a two month wait, the turbine was successfully replaced earlier this week on 4/6/09. The replacement turbine will have a 5 year warranty from when it was put in service. I've also filled out a Loss of Use Compensation form which my dealer is submitting to SWWP for up to $50 per month compensation ($1.87 per day) for the time it was diagnosed as needing replacement, 2/13/09, up through when the new unit was put in place. Yesterday, my turbine put out almost 30 kilowatts in the high winds we had in Oklahoma, so it's nice to have it running properly again.
Lance
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i have been having alot of issues with the software for the 3.7. swa sent an updated version and it only got worse and trying to get this resolved has been like pulling teeth. as a prospective dealer for this product i'm questioning their integrity at this point. anyone else have issues?
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Hi Ken,
I have been trying to get an issue resolved now for months. Lack of support has been a problem. They ignore my dealer and replies to me are spotty. I upgraded to 2.02 software and have sent repeated data logs to Ross at tech support. It has been over a week since my last e-mail and no reply. They should have enough trained staff to reply in 24 to 48 hours. I don't want to but I might seek legal help.
Barry
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I inquired with my dealer if I would have a new 5 year warranty on this new turbine, and they said it would, which is nice to hear. They also said that they'll give me a compensation form to submit for lost power generation while the unit was down, which I certainly wasn't expecting.
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my turbine has not been turning now for 3 days with gusting winds and since installing new skystream 3.7 software. southwest tech support not returning emails/calls. anyone else having similar problems?
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Ken,
What version of software are you running? is this a ZigBee compliant turbine or the older version? My email is below, send me your info and I will get someone from SWWP to contact you
hoss@susitnaenergy.com
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If your communications works, are you getting telemetry and does the grid status indicate OK? What does the "advance diagnostics" page indicate? Could be the SW or a hardware failure. Had a relay board fail for the second time on my turbine in the past 4 months and 1 month after I installed the new 2.02 SW.
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Installed 2 3.7 Skystreams on 33 ft mono poles in early February 09 they have produced about 1100 KW but the noise is unbearable (Siren is the best description)On 1.25 acre lot and have filled the poles with foam which helped but not good enough. Any ideas? I am a couple of days from taking them down as I am so frustrated with them. Has any body had any luck returning these units or taking South West Wind Power to court. They are not what they say they are.
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Hi all,
Just put up my turbine on Sunday. Now it is Wednesday and it has stopped working. My meter (remote) says everything is normal. It is communicating and has stopped completley. It is windy...but, you have to be kidding that it stops for 10 hours in 20mph wind....My Turbine is from June of 2008 and I just installed it because of delays in construction. Any thoughts on what may be wrong. I will call the dealer ect. I loved it when it was going. 24 hours and dies...help!!!
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Have you tried resetting it? Power the unit down for 10 minutes and the power it back up. Could be a simple as a stuck relay.
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Paul, I am assuming it was working. If you have good telemetry and all the parameters appear normal could be the relay board and one or both of the bridge rectifiers on it to be specific. Happened to mine twice now. Worst case, if yours is from the same lot mine was last year, then your inverter may have blown a power resistor. In this case it will require a new inverter and 3 month wait. I sent Josh details on these two failures a while back but due to the details I provided he may not want to publish them. e-mail me if you are interested. jlrichcreek@performancewisp.com
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Appreciate the help. I expect a 3 month wait based upon what I am getting from my dealer to just get a hold of tech support.
Yes it was working very impressive...quiet...and I suspect I can do quite well her in power generation. If it worked. Sent you a PM to see how you can help.
Appreciate using knowledge of the commons to help others. Thanks all for what you are doing. I will be doing the same as I am baptized by fire.
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Appreciate the help. I expect a 3 month wait based upon what I am getting from my dealer to just get a hold of tech support.
Yes it was working very impressive...quiet...and I suspect I can do quite well here in power generation. If it worked. Sent you a PM to see how you can help.
Appreciate using knowledge of the commons to help others. Thanks all for what you are doing. I will be doing the same as I am baptized by fire.
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Good News.
Have a new turbine enroute. Was a bit frustrating and some of the complaints on the web have made me nervous but, I have to and it to Southwest...that is a GREAT response. I have an older model turbine so it is great to have it switched out. My loss for having to pull down the old one and put up a new one but, being at the edge of residential based power has a cost...at least that is what I am going to tell myself after I pay for a new crane rental.
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I installed my turbine in early March 09 and it ran about 12 hours and started having problems going out on overspeed even though it only running 270-300 rpm. After sevral days of shutting it down and starting it up, it cotinued the same pattern and finally quit spinning. Me and my dealer ran all of the diagnostics and found it was a bad alternator. We replaced the unit and the new one has run flawlessly for about 6 weeks. It has version 2.02 of firmware and has withstood 55mph winds and not shut down. I am very pleased with the new turbine
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All,
I recently moved my turbine to a better location on my property and went from a hub height of 39' to 53'. The turbine had too much turbulence from a small woods to my south. After the move I have seen a very noticeable difference with production, especially from the south. So heed to the recommendations of siting, it is very critical if you expect your turbine to perform. I originally installed it on a class-3 utility pole to keep my cost low because the steel poles were too expensive. Recently I came across a company that is selling Skysteam poles at a third of the cost of the Valmont ones SWWP uses. The pole I purchased is 50', one-piece pole with hinge tabs, bolts and delivery to my residence for $3500. Company I purchased it through is National Pole and Structure out of MI, owner is John. Note, it takes 6-8 weeks and you must have a way to unload it.
On a side note, I also installed a 1170 watt solar array with 6-Sanyo Hip195BA19 panels and a Fronius IG2000 inverter. I intend to make it solar tracking but for the mean time it is fixed. The array had a max output of 1273w (~10% above the rating). It has been in operation since 5/13, and as of 5/22 it has produced 82kWhr, my turbine has only produced 77 kWhr from 5/1 to 5/22, but it really hasn't been that windy. I am in NE Indiana and my small solar array has out performed my turbine, so if you haven't taken the plunge with wind you may want to take another look at solar. Prices of solar has actually dropped and turbines have gone up. All you need is a clear shot of the southern sky. In-case you are wondering, even on a cloudy day the array still put out 2 kWh. I have $7300 in my array setup and I did the work myself.
I will have Josh post pictures of my setup.
Jeff
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hi jeff just read your entry. i have a skystream to. would like to also do solar. been looking at the panels. lot to choose from. can you tell me where you bought yours at. my email is kw8234@t6b.com thanks ken williams. 815 742-2572
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Jeff,
That is great that you are seeing more production. I cant tell you how many times I have told customers the importance of getting up into the wind and away from turbulance. One comment though for anyone thinking of buying a tower from another manufacturer. It is important that you check to make sure that tower is approved by SWWP, use of a non-approved tower could void your warranty.
Wind Power to the People!
Hoss
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Hoss,
Agree, you must be careful in choosing the correct tower. The tower I purchased is made by CHM Industries in Saginaw, TX and is made from heavier steel. I meets or exceeds SWWPs specifications. I can send you the drawings of the tower or you can contact the dealer I mentioned.
Jeff
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Jeff,
I would be interested in talking to them, can you send me their contact info or pass along mine?
hoss@susitnaenergy.com
907-337-1300
Thanks partner,
Hoss
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Hi,
I came across a company on the web the other day (Event Horizon Solar and Wind) that sells substitute 33.5' Skystream towers for $2,687 and Tec Wind segmented 50' monopole towers for $3,236.
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My pet peve with many of these Sky Stream dealers is the fact that they are putting these machines on such short towers. Often times the customer doesn't have enough knowlege about wind power to know any better, but the dealers should.
Mike Bergey said it best, 'putting a wind turbine on a short tower is like putting up a solar panel in the shade'.
Turbulence will rob your machine of potential power production and possibly shorten it's usuable life span.
I try to disuade my customers here in Alaska from putting a wind turbine on anything less than 65 foot tower, 85 is what I shoot for. I have one at 115 feet.
The difference in power production can be very substantial.
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Sam, I would advise against considering a short tower. Even in a large open field a wind turbines lower blade tip should be an absolute minimum of 40 feet off the ground. Ground effect and turbulence will rob the turbine of power and stress the blades and other parts.
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It is nice that in this case nobody was damaged. Because before I finished reading it I had imagined a terrible picture. I remember once I read one of Wright's detectives (I'm fond of him and find almost all the books at the files search engine http://rapid4me.com ). And the melting ice fall from the roof and broke the head of one woman. And I think this can happen in real life, too.
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I inquired with my dealer if I would have a new 5 year warranty on this new turbine, and they said it would, which is nice to hear. They also said that they'll give me a compensation form to submit for lost power generation while the unit was down, which I certainly wasn't expecting. ...
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was interested in finding out your actual cost on your skystream vs.. the return of electricity..we live on lake erie..which seems to always have lots of wind..as we looked into getting one last year ..however, our neighbours complained that it would be a eye sore..however,,now perhaps the situation has changed.
Nova,
http://venomancer.co.cc
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I have a skystream 3.7 that seems to put itself in Anemometer mode. I have been able to get it out by reseting (rebooting after shutting the turbine off for > 10 minutes) in the past, but that doesn't work anymore.
Any suggestions from anyone?
Thanks,
Wouter
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